Finnish Mosin Nagant Rifle - FAQ's

Tuco - Mosin Nagant Dot Net

This is the first issue of the Finnish Mosin Nagant FAQ.  More items will be added over time as this is just a start.  It is hoped this will be helpful to all collectors.  There was an attempt to arrange these by topic but that was a bit difficult as many of the questions can cover a number of models.  When this is updated it will be mentioned on the forum boards as well as on the main Mosin site -  If you can not find the answer here then make sure to check out the Collectors Forum at www.gunboards.com as it is without a doubt the premier Mosin Nagant forum on the Net.

Did the Finns manufacture their own receivers?

No the Finns used captured as well as purchased Russian/Soviet receivers to manufacture their versions of the Mosin Nagant.  Most of these were older M91 receivers but later in WW2 production you will encounter some M91/30 receivers.

Did the Finns re-number their rifles and rifle parts?

Yes in many or even most cases the Finns did indeed re-number Mosin Nagants to match.  It is very common to see re-stamped or even lined out numbers on Finnish Mosin Nagant rifles.  This is correct and as the rifles should be.  It does not hurt the value of the rifle.  One can find re-numbered bolts, magazines (magazines without numbers as well), and any number of Finnish re-numbered parts.

How many versions of the Mosin Nagant did the Finns produce?

For general arms, not including the very rare or sniper rifles, there was the M91-24 Civil Guard's Rifle and carbine, the M91 (1920's and also 1940's production), the M27 rifle and carbine, the Civil Guard M28 Rifle, the Civil Guard M28-30 Rifle, and the M39 Service Rifle.  There are others but these are the versions collectors will see on the market.

Did the Finns capture all the Mosin Nagants they used in service either as issue rifles or to make use of the receivers?

No.  While the Finns did take large numbers of Mosin Nagants in the Finnish Civil War of 1918 as well as the Winter War of 1939-1940, then Finns also purchased a great number of rifles abroad in the 1920's.  Most of the Finnish stockpile of Mosin Nagants came from these outside purchases.

Are Finnish Mosin Nagants more accurate than the Russian-Soviet versions?

In very general terms yes the Finnish rifles are more accurate.  In fact it is safe to say they are much more accurate as a whole.  That does not mean one can not locate a Russian-Soviet rifle that can outshoot a Finnish made Mosin.  The Finns did take more time in fitting and manufacture of their rifles than the Soviets.  The Finns were also dedicated to accuracy not just a mass production rifle.

What are good reference works on the Finnish Mosin Nagants?

There are a number that come to mind, with this site being one of them.  We have tried our best to provide some of the best Mosin Nagant information that can be located anywhere.  Also Mosin Nagant Page of DanZ is quite good.  While it focuses on the Russian models, The Russian Mosin Nagant Page is another great online resource.  Other fine works are: The Mosin Nagant Rifle, by Terence Lapin, Rifles Of The White Death, by Doug Bowser, Drei Linien Die Gewehre Mosin-Nagant, by Karl-Heinz Wrobel, and without a doubt the best work on the subject Sotilaskasiaseet Suomessa 1918-1991 Vol1-3- from Markku Palokangas: Vammalan Kirijapaino Oy.  Most of these books and information on how to buy such books can be located on the site as can the links to the mentioned websites.

Why did the Finns choose the Mosin Nagant?

It comes down to numbers and a new cash poor nation.  The Finns captured massive amounts of Mosin Nagant rifles in the Finnish Civil War of 1918.  As they were a new nation in dire need to put weapons in their army's hands, the Mosin Nagant was the clear answer to the Finns.  The Finns did not have to spend enormous amounts of money to acquire rifles from outside sources as they had the rifles on hands.  In the 1920's the Finns made great efforts to have the Mosin Nagant become the standard arm in Finland.  They did so by trading or selling many of the non Mosin Nagants still in Finland.  These included a number of rifles with Japanese rifles being sold and traded in mass to acquire more Mosin Nagants.  It was also seen as an advantage for the Finns to be armed with a rifle that could use the ammunition of their most likely enemy.  The greatest threat to Finland for years, and years to come, was Russia - The Soviet Union, so using Russian ammo worked out well for Finland.

 Why are the Finns so collectable?

This answer could be an entire article, so I will be as brief as I can.  One factor is the low production numbers.  The Finnish made Mosin Nagants were not produced on the scale of many battle rifles in WW2.  One can compare 21 million Soviet M91-30's to only 130,000 (or so) Finnish M39 rifles to get a pretty clear picture of the number difference.  All the Finnish Mosin Nagants are uncommon and some are downright rare.  Also Finland has a great and interesting history behind it.  A small nation of tough Finns stood up to the largest army in the world and gave much better than it took.  The history is compelling and certainly is a factor in collecting.  Another key factor is the simple fact that the Finnish made Mosin Nagants are well made and accurate rifles.  They can hold their own in accuracy against any military arm made in their time frame.  The old notion that cheap prices are why Finns are collectable is false, as the Finnish market is no longer a cheap one.  This further goes to prove just how  good the rifles themselves are.  They have an appeal that is much greater than cheap prices.

What is the most collectable Finnish Mosin Nagant?

You can ask this of five different Finnish collectors and might get five different answers.  Really any Finnish Mosin Nagant is a collectable arm but some are more collectable than others.  I do think it is safe to say any of the carbines and the snipers rank at the top of most lists.  There are a number of experimental versions that were made as well but the chances of finding them are next to none.   The fact is that the carbines and snipers are about as rare as one can get but they do surface from time to time.  The costs of such an item is indeed reflected by just how uncommon they are.  For most "common" collectors the early Finns, like the M91-24, the 1920's made M91's, the M27's, M28's, and M28-30's are great finds and worthy to be called rare collector's items.

How much is my Finnish Mosin Nagant worth?

Talk about the hardest question one can ask.....This really depends on so many factors that any statement on price is really nothing more than a guess or a price range.  There are rifles in my collection that I have bought for $50 but I have seen like rifles sell for over $300.  One never knows as so much goes into price.  Rarity makes price is a pretty simple rule; however, there are many cases when price is set by other standards.  What is the rifle worth?  It is worth what someone will pay for it.

Did my rifle see combat?

This is impossible to answer.  It can be stated that the Finns were in dire need of weapons and the chances are good that your M27, M28, M28-30, older M91, and many M39's did see combat.  The chances are greater with Finnish rifles than some others due to lower production numbers, need of weapons, and the size of the Finnish forces.  Still there is no way to know if your rifle served on the front lines or was in rear action issued to the guard at a bakery.

Why are so many Finns is such outstanding condition?

Post war reworks.  The Mosin Nagants served in Finland quite a long time and many of these rifles were still in Finnish stockpiles in the 1990's.  As such most of the rifles have been reworked at least once in their lifetime and in many cases the rifles have been reworked a number of times.  Also with some of these rifles, such as some wartime M91's and the Tikka manufactured M91-30's, they saw little to no issue.  As such they are really in "like new" condition.

Why is there such conflicting information on these rifles?

This is another tough one to answer.  One factor is that much of the early information on these rifles was incorrect.  A number of gun books misidentify Finnish Mosin Nagants or have incorrect production info.  Even some of the fine reference books on these rifles have errors, as do webpages and other resources.  The simple fact is that most of the information on these rifles is in Finnish, which is not widely read or spoken in the US.  As such the information is lacking here in some regards.  Also Finnish is a tough language and it is very easy to make translation mistakes.  Also there is the simple fact the Finns broke patterns and did things that really are hard to understand.  As this is the case a lot of Finnish collecting is from observation and personal "feelings".  No Mosin Nagant "expert" is above being corrected and very few think the information is written in stone.  Even the authors and collectors on this site make mistakes and rethink issues.  The information on these rifles is still evolving and growing.  BTW: WE MAKE MISTAKES AS WELL (smile)  There are also those, mainly on the Internet, that are so called "acting experts".  The only problem is while they sound like they know what they are talking about in many cases their information is dubious at best.  This is indeed so bad there are entire websites dedicated to this sort of character.

What is an SA mark?

This is the Finnish Army property marking, standing for Suomen Armeija.  This is stamped on most Finnish issued rifles.

What does SY mean?  What does SK.Y mean?

These are markings of the Finnish Civil Guard.  The SY is for Suojeluskuntian Ylieskunta and the SK.Y is the later version of this marking.

What was the most common Finnish rifle issued in the Winter War? The Continuation War?

The M91 rifle was by far the most common rifle seen.  Either in standard Russian form or in the Finnish produced models.  Later in WW2 one did start to see more and more M39's in the field but their numbers never surpassed the M91.

What are the chances of finding a M27 Carbine?

Very slim.  They do pop up from time to time but when they do the costs are high. One should still always keep their hopes up as I was able to locate one this year (2002).  The price for the item was high but it is the jewel of my collection.

What types of troops were carbines issued to?

Cavalry, messenger, and such troops were issued the Finnish carbines. M27 carbines were issued to: URR, HRR, Cavalry NCO School (RvAUK), Signal Squadron (VEsk) and Mounted Artillery Battery (RatsPtri) all parts of the Cavalry Brigade.  It is interesting to note that the horse artillery batteries were no longer a part of the Cavalry Brigade but lumped into field artillery by the time of the Winter War.  This change had to happen sometime between 1935-39 but it is not clear just when this occured.

Did the Swiss firm SIG make Mosin Nagants for Finland? How about the Germans?

No.  The Swiss firm Schweiz Industrie Gessellschaft, Neuhausen (SIG) manufactured barrels the Finns used on the M91-24 Civil Guard Rifle.  No the Germans did not make Mosin Nagants for Finland either.  There were German firms that supplied barrels to Finland for the M91-24 rifle.  These are marked Bohler-Stahl.  In both cases the rifles themselves were manufactured and assembled in Finland.  This mistake of Swiss and German manufacture is in quite a bit of older reference works on Mosin Nagants.

Why are some rifles not SA marked?

This is hard to answer as it can be for any number of reasons.  It could be as simple as the rifle being somehow missed during the stamping process.  It is not uncommon to see rifles that do not bear SA markings but are still Finnish issued arms.

Why are Civil Guard Rifles also SA marked?

The Finnish Civil Guard was abolished under the treaty that ended the Continuation War with the Soviet Union.  As such all Civil Guard rifles were turned over to Finnish Army stocks.  It is also possible some of these rifles went into Army hands in 1941-44 and were so marked.  A great many  of the Finnish Civil Guard members became a part of the Finnish Army in this time frame, and their weapons in many cases went with them.

Did the Finns make rifle parts?

Yes the Finns did make rifle parts.  These range from sights to bolt parts and about everything in between, including magazine parts.

Is it common to see Russian-Soviet parts mixed in with Finnish made Mosin Nagants?

Yes this is very common to see.  In most cases the Finns used every Russian part they could make use of.  It is not uncommon to see a large mix of parts in a Finnish rifle.  This is very common in the bolts as a number of maker stamps can be located on the same bolt.  In some regard the Finnish Mosin Nagants are parts rifles, but they are the ultimate in parts rifles.  The Finns were masters at taking what they had an improving it.

Did other troops use the Mosin Nagant in Finland and are these marked in a certain manner?

Yes.  A number of nations sent volunteers to Finland in the Finnish Civil War, the Winter War, and the Continuation War.  These included but were are not limited to Swedes, Danes, Estonians (3,000-5,000 in WW2), and even Americans.  No the rifles used by these forces are not marked in a certain manner.

What does INT/32 mean?

While this marking does not appear on rifles it can appear on leather goods, uniforms and other equipment. INT/32 would mean the item was manufactured in 1932 and accepted for use in that year. INT/43 would be made in 1943 and accepted for military use in that year. The INT is an abbreviation of this acceptance.

What is the number seen following a large stylized S?

In most cases this is a Finnish Civil Guard district number.  The Civil Guard marked these rifles as they were issued to individual districts in Finland.  It is not uncommon to see several of these numbers crossed out then new numbers re-stamped.  This just means the rifle was issued to another district over time.  Please see the Finnish section of the site for more information on this issue.

Is there a map that shows Civil Guard districts?

Yes but none online that I know of.  I am working on this but keep running into copyright problems.  If someone out there has some talent at drawing maps, contact me and we can get this done ourselves.  It would be a great resource.

When was the Civil Guard disbanded?

In 1944 the Civil Guard was disbanded by agreement between Finland and the Soviet Union.  The peace treaty was signed in Paris (1947).

Did the Finns produce their own stripper clips or just use Russian ones?

The Finns did manufacture their own clips as well as using Russian clips.

What is the A, B, and C that appears on early Tikka M91 barrels?

These are bore diameters.  See the Finnish section, M91 article , for more info.

Are Finnish bore diameters the same in all rifles?

No.  These can range from model to model and in fact can range from rifle to rifle.  Finnish bore diameters have a much larger range than most military arms.  The only real way to tell your bore diameter is to slug the barrel.

What is the stock cartouche that looks like crossed swords, wagon wheels, or crossed cannons that have a letter that overlaps?

This is a Finnish stock makers marking.  These are crossed cannons and there are a number of variations one can encounter as there were many makers of these stocks.

My post war stock has no finish to the wood.  Is that common?

Yes this is rather common to see on the post war stocks.  They have either no finish or next to no finish on the wood.  In many regards they look untreated.

What is the filled in hole located on the right buttstock of Finnish rifles?

In most cases this is where there was once a unit id disc.  These discs were dropped on most rifles around the time of the Winter War, as rifles that were captured gave too much information to the enemy.  Some disks did survive but it is not common to locate rifles that still have these in place.  It is most common to see such discs in M27 rifles.  One might also see such a filled hole in areas of the stock where that could not have had a stock disc.  In most cases this is a Finnish repair of stock damage.  The repair is very common and almost looks like dark wood putty. 

Did the Finns use stock discs post war?

Yes they did but again the use was not common.  War era discs will be brass in look and color while the post war discs look like aluminum.  In many cases these post war discs are artillery units the most common being 2.PSTO KAR PR. which is the 2nd Karelian Artillery Brigade these discs as far as I know being seen only on M39's.  I have never seen a wartime M39 stock disc as it seems the Finns banned the use of these discs before M39 production got underway as a security measure.  What is not known is why the practice was once again undertaken post war.

What type of wood is used in Finnish stocks?

Birch wood is the common Finnish wood used.  You can find other wood types as many Finnish stocks were made from older Russian and even US Mosin Nagant stocks.

Why did the Finns use sling swivels?

Simply the Finns felt this was a better way to secure a sling to the rifle.  It is much less likely to loose the swivel that it  was to loose the leather "dog-collar" used on most Russian-Soviet Mosin Nagants.

Why are there two piece stocks in the first place?

It began as a method of replacing the thin forward section of the stock on m/27's so that a heavier thicker forend could be affixes. It was carried onto other models as a way of reusing older rear sections of stocks.  It also seems the Finns went to the two piece stock at least partly to prevent warping in temperature changes.  Finland is a nation that has a number of different regions.  In the southern part of Finland it can be warm and humid at times (very much so) while in other areas of Finland it can be quite cold.  There can indeed be a range so the Finns needed a design that could perform no matter the weather or conditions.

Are stock carving such as initials common in these rifles?

It is hard to say these are common but they are by no means uncommon.  Many Finnish Mosin Nagants will have AK, VK, or like initials carved into the stocks.  It is clear this was done by soldiers but the meaning is unknown.  There are some patterns that seem to occur, such as the AK mentioned above, but actual meaning is unknown.  It is interesting many Finns seem to think this was done only in Finnish Army service not by those in the Civil Guard.  The reasoning is that in most cases those in the Civil Guard paid for their own rifle, so would not have done this to the stock.

Why is my M91-24 in a WW2 era two piece M91 stock?

When the M91-24 was turned over to the Finnish Army, they were lumped into M91 numbers.  As such broken stocks or those that were worn would have been replaced with M91 stocks.  These stocks would be widened a bit to handle the larger diameter or heavy M91-24 barrel.  This could have happened wartime or postwar. 

Why is my M27 in a M28-30 stock?  Why is my 28-30 in a M27 stock?  And like questions.

As all these rifles went into Army service you can find mix and matched stocks from time to time.  It is hard to state just when this was done.  Most of this was more than likely done in the post war years but it is never safe to make such a blanket statement.  It is possible that the one in your collection was done at the height of the war but it is safe to say this was not the case most of the time.  Could this be called wartime correct? Yes it could but again it is not typical. 

What are AV2 and AV3?

AV2 is the Finnish arms depot at Viipuri and AV3 is the Finnish arms depot at Kupio.

Why are Finnish bayonets so costly?

Rarity.  Finnish bayonets were never made in large numbers and the issue losses of these bayonets cut the low production numbers even more.  The M39 SKY bayonet is one of the most uncommon bayonets around and many times is worth 2-3 times what the rifle is worth.

Why did the Finns prefer the blade front sight to the Russian globe sight that was standard on the M91-30?

Really there are two reasons that leap out.  The first is that the blade sight is much easier to see and use in the snow.  Also the blade sight will not pick up debris in the same manner as the globe sight.  As Finland is a nation that can have a lot of snow and also is nation with a number of trees,  one can see why this sight was more suited for issue.

What is "Finnish Matching"?

Another US coined term.  This refers to the bolt and the barrel matching, so the rifle is "Finnish Matching".  It is not uncommon to have magazines that are not numbered so this is not counted against the rifle in terms of matching.  It is not a bad term but is confusing at times.  

What is the D stamping seen on Finnish barrels?

This simply means the rifle is chambered to handle the Soviet-Finnish D round, which was the standard round of the WW2 era.

If the rifle is not D stamped, is the rifle safe to fire using standard surplus ammo?

With M39 and WW2 M91 production the D chambering was standard, so many of these rifles will not have the D marking.  That is due to the fact it was the standard so there was no need to mark such rifles.  The only rifles that might cause a worry for lack of the D stamping would be the M91-24 and the M28-30 rifles.  To be safe it is always a good idea to have the rifle checked by a gunsmith if there are any questions.  Better to be safe than sorry.

Why is my M28 not dated?

The dates on the M28's does not appear on top of the barrel shank, as in most cases the date can be located under the barrel.  To see the date you have to take the rifle from the wood.

Do all M28-30's have the added sleeve near the front band?

No not all but this was standard improvement. Some rifles such as the earliest versions did not have the aluminum sleeve added. Some of the later production, the sleeve was either removed or damaged and not replaced. It should be standard on all m/28-30 from about 1935-1940. 

Are all M28-30's SKY dated in the same manner?

No.  First year production rifles, 1933, are not dated on the outer barrel shank.

Are Finnish Sniper Rifles Rare?

Yes Finnish sniper rifles are some of the most uncommon military rifles in the world.  For more information see the Sniper Section of this site and the works of Vic Thomas.

When did the Finns add the sling swivels to the M91 rifle?

This was an improvement seen in mass in the 1940-43 production M91's at Tikka and VKT.

What sling is correct on my Mosin Nagant?

This one will be a work in progress.  Once we find the time we will try and do a large sling and accessories section on the site.  At this point we have just not found the time to do so.

When did the Finns start to use hang-tags?

According to Markku Palokangas, the world's leading expert on Finnish weapons, the commonly seen hang tags did not come to pass until post WW2.

Are all Finnish Mosin Nagants shimmed to improve accuracy?

No.  While it is common to see both M39's and M91's with stock shims this is by no means in every such rifle.  These stock shims were also done in the post war period to improve accuracy.  One can find shims in any number of Mosin Nagant models but it does seem most common in M39's and M91's.  The shims can be pre-war, wartime, or post war.

What does RV mean?

In simple terms when one sees RV used in terms of arms and arms related items, it means cavalry or mounted troops.  While not the exact definition this is a safe way to look at it.

What types of ammo pouches were used with the Finnish Mosin Nagants?

There were a wide range of pouches used with different rifles.  Over time we will try and put this on the site in detail.  Some of the more common pouches one will encounter are older German WW1 pouches that bear SA , SY, or SKY markings.

What does AZF mean?

This is a proof marking that appears on rifles captured by the Austrians then later sold to the Finns.  This marking appears on barrel shanks in most cases. OWEG is also an Austrian marking.  ARZ is a German WW1 capture marking.